Large change to melee damage going in...

[Apuclevercow]

The Blizzard's post is creating a doubt here, literally meaning that 30% crit chance but 10% miss chance will make you only crit 20% of your attacks, knowing that you'll miss 10% of them.
But it seems like the Attack Table from WoWWiki shows otherwise:
So based on the fact the attacker had 21% chance to miss, 35% crit chance and the defender had 39% chance to dodge, the attack table should have looked like:
Element: Chance / Die Roll
Miss: 21% / 0.01 - 21
Dodge: 39% / 21.01 - 60
Parry: 0% / -
Block: 0% / -
Critical Hit: 35% / 60.01 - 95
Ordinary Hit: 5% / 95.01 - 100

Am I right?

[Paniz]

Am I right?

i guess not exactly, but yes, crit overrides normal hits (at least form what that wowwiki example says). and blizzard post doesn't says that your crit chance overrided by miss chance. what it says actually is that your crit chance should be decreased by % of misses (if i get it correctly - those numbers actually not additive). and if i get it correctly from the blizzard post your attack table (for same numbers) should look like this:

Miss: 21%
Dodge: 39% - 39%*21% = 39%-8.19% = 30.81% (because 21% of your dodges already missed)
Parry: 0%
Block: 0%
Critical Hit: 35% - 35%*(21%+30.81%) = 35%-0.181335 = 16,8665%
Ordinary Hit: the rest or 31,3235%

i might miss something but at least this is how i think it should be, from the blizzard post and from this part said on wowwiki:

The chances listed in your general spellbook tab (for you to Dodge, Parry, or Block) are absolute percentages. If you have a listed dodge chance of 4.5%, then on average 4.5% of all melee attacks made against you by a mob of equal level will be dodged, not merely 4.5% of those melee attacks that didn't miss you.

i'm not sure which one of this two calculations closer to what it has to be (your, based on wowwiki example, or my, based on blizzard post) but definately not the one implemented on the server right now. the way it works right now is the worst way it can be. the way it was working wasn't good too (if it was exactly like cola said and i doubt that chances was simply adding to eachother), but now we simply expunge crit from attack table with any kind of avoidance, which is ofc bullshit :s

[Apuclevercow]

^ That's the kind of maths I would have done, but the WoWWiki isn't showing this at all and even the Blizzard post, you seem to misunderstand it.

[Paniz]

@Apuclevercow

If you have a listed dodge chance of 4.5%, then on average 4.5% of all melee attacks made against you by a mob of equal level will be dodged, not merely 4.5% of those melee attacks that didn't miss you.

this is from wowwiki.

if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.

this is blue post. read it like "if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance (to crit) includes misses". and this actualy means that lets say you have 20% chance to crit and 5% chance to miss - your real crit chance will be 19%, because your 20% of crits include 5% of misses (exactly what said in blue post, 0.2-0.2*0.05 = 0.19 or 19%), and not 15% (20%crit-5%miss). i don't even get where you get that last part from, probably you missread attack table where ordinary hit listed below crit hit. the thing is ordinary hit should get expunged from attack table and not critical hit (if you believe to examples).

[Schaka]

I just remembered a guide that has a great hit table explanation for rogues too: http://www.wow-one.com/forum/topic/6628 ... o-friends/

Edit: Blue post seems to agree with the WoWWiki hit tables. Precedence is the interesting thing. Because you can never reach over 100% so one thing can push the other off the hit table. That's the important part for calculation.

But when you have
21% miss
39% dodge
35% crit
5% hit should be correct.

Crit can be pushed off the hit table, but it requires more dodge/miss than that. I edited this post 4 times now. This article is extremely confusing and I'm giving up for tonight.

The chances listed in your general spellbook tab (for you to Dodge, Parry, or Block) are absolute percentages. If you have a listed dodge chance of 4.5%, then on average 4.5% of all melee attacks made against you by a mob of equal level will be dodged, not merely 4.5% of those melee attacks that didn't miss you.

This and the blue post describe that percentages are additive.

[Apuclevercow]

It makes sense but it means the attack tables from WoWWiki are wrong.
edit: Well, seems like I'm not the only one to find it confusing and it would be really weird if WoWWiki's post from Blizzard and the table were contradictory.
Paniz maths are fine, but they're just a misunderstanding of the blue post imo.

[Paniz]

@Schaka Yeah, i also got confused when i re-read blue post and watched examples on wowwiki. They are contrary to each other. But how can they be additive if

4.5% of all melee attacks made against you (...) will be dodged

and

not merely 4.5% of those melee attacks that didn't miss you.

? This part and bluepost says pretty much that "dodge can be miss at the same time" :) But tables on wowwiki and in you link shows that they are simply additive)

[Paniz]

Actually i'm pretty sure what said Cola about how it was working before - is not true. All rogues have like 19% chance to miss with white damage (dual wield base chance to miss is 24% but every rogue is soft-hit-capped). If it was like Cola said - different casters (like mages or locks) would've had something like 19%+3% of dodge on every attack. And crit chance vs those casters would've been something like 19%(from miss)+(19%+3%)(from dodge)+30%(rogue's crit chance). I've never seen anything even close to this vs casters. Never seen that much dodge and never seen 70% of crit on white attacks vs mages :S

[Apuclevercow]

@Paniz

The chances listed in your general spellbook tab (for you to Dodge, Parry, or Block) are absolute percentages. If you have a listed dodge chance of 4.5%, then on average 4.5% of all melee attacks made against you by a mob of equal level will be dodged, not merely 4.5% of those melee attacks that didn't miss you.

WoWWiki doesn't mean that:

"dodge can be miss at the same time"

Like I said earlier, you give it a false translation.
They just wanted to point the fact it is additive by saying that your dodge will be calculated by 4.5%*1 and not 4,5%*(1-Miss chance).

if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.

Same thing here (and anyway WoWWiki tried to say that but with other words), it means that the crit chance of 5% will be 5%*1 (includes misses) and not 5%*(1-Miss chance) because it would not include misses.

edit: About what Cola said on how it was working before, that's not the issue anymore.
The correct attack table is:

Rogue vs Warrior.
Rogue has 5% chance to miss and 10% chance to crit.
Warrior has 2% chance to dodge, 3% chance to parry and 4% chance to block.
Rogue hits warrior with a normal white attack from the front.

Miss: 5%
Dodge: 2%
Parry: 3%
Block: 4%
Crit chance: 10%

In theory, it is supposed to work the way Cola said (not talking about tickets/indices), but in practice it seems like all stats which precede another overwrite it.
Therefore it'd be nice to modify asap the current attack table.

[Schaka]

Yeah, based on the blue post it seems that your 30% crit are out of ALL hits. So if you don't hit the target, there goes your chance to crit. So the effective crit chance has to be much lower. If 65% of your hits get avoided, then you can't crit with 50% of your hits.

And according to WoWWiki the precedence of combat actions is given by Blizzard. So it definitely matters. Only a preceding action can push another off the hit table. If you have 90% miss and 10% chance that your attacks get dodged, your crit is completely pushed off.

To clarify, the blue post says that Paniz calculation is right. But the hit tables on WoWWiki make it appear as if ALL percentages are additive - EVEN crit - which contradicts the blue post.

Maybe someone can find another source on ElitistJerks or whatever that explains it better.